NASA-UAP-D026, Apollo 14 Debriefing, 1971

You're , you're coming through loud and clear . OK , I guess we got 3 mics . One very What mics do we need ? Good Morning , Charles . Hello , how are you ? Fine , how are you ? Fine , good . You're fine . Good . Yeah , we tried to go through this , uh . You know , your debrief last night , the , the , uh , printed one , you know , there's all the stuff that you guys did on , on tape , your tech debrief , to get those so that we try and not repeat , you know , only amplify stuff and so we've tried to come up , you have much time to do that , but I hope we've got most of that stuff . And , uh OK . If you , If you think we're hitting some area that you think , you know , is a conflict with that , well yell and tell us and we'll . All righty . Change her around . And some of the things , now there were some things that you guys said yesterday , you know , when I was in the project debrief that that probably uh . Bear on some of these too . Good morning . Good morning . Thank you Mm What do you mean ? It's cold in here this morning . Yeah . Good morning Bill . Hi . Hi , Craig . Are we using those mics ? I don't know whether they're hot or not . On the floor before we , uh , you know , start asking questions to identify yourself so . Transcribing , know our voices and see who these people are . Very . OK Um Oh . OK , in case we need somebody know about sources of counseling but sources of uh wait a minute . Yeah . Right . Sources of potassium in the diet . That from somebody . Yeah , I think . Really handy . Here . I don't either . We don't have But that's some stuff I'd like . I saw a picture today . It was a lot better than the one they had . More interesting too . Yeah . I . Sorry about that . I got some . I I sleep . This is the first thing . There's another one . This Give the up . Yeah , it's hard isn't anything you can do . I heard what you did . OK , the show's all yours . What kind of format do you have in mind ? OK , uh , answers . Yeah , uh , questions and answers . Uh , I guess . We ought to for the tape identify this is Doctor Barry and for the medical debriefing and I'll try and uh ask most of the questions . If people have some here , we'll try and hand them in that way . If they're not , will you identify yourself and I think they can identify you guys' voices pretty well already on the tape , so there shouldn't be any problem with , with the tape thing . Chuck , I think we're gonna have to . They're not loud enough . It's not . It's a little down , Mr . Bernhardt , where is he ? I'll take care of it . Probably outside I guess . Can , can you get him to turn them up some ? We can yell for a while here if it'll help , and then we can get them to turn them up some . You just speak up loud 1234554321 . Looks like it's coming out of those . Is that where it's coming from there ? Yes . OK . Uh , Craig we'll get somebody in . We got Tom . Try it again . 1234554321 . Test out . It's better . It's way down . Uh , I think the knob's wrong on this one . loud and clear back there . Well , it's not coming in there though . They're not getting it in there , OK . We can hear them great , but they're not hearing us very well . They want that mic turned inside . The speaker , not the mic . OK . I set it on the minimum setting in here instead of the max . The max seems to be me and vice versa . Oh really . OK . Hey , that's a lot better . OK , it's labeled wrong . They're , they're just screwed up and that's too much . Yeah , yeah , we can , we can hear you loud and clear now . That's great . OK , OK , good show . OK , I'm gonna start a little bit , uh , out of , out of order here , but one of the things that sort of pervades at all is medical requirements and in this section 27 you had some comments about , uh , the medical requirements , and I thought we ought to , we ought to just get 11 question with you . We in explaining the medical requirements , we have one opportunity to do that with uh with DEC of course at the at the time that we're trying to get the document , the medical requirements document published . The second , uh , the only opportunity we really get to go over that with you was at the the 30 day debrief , uh , 30 day briefing , uh , prior to the flight . Now , did you guys feel that you had an understanding of what the requirements were ? Because when I read this , it sounds like you did not . Is that true ? I think we read , I read the forms , Chuck , and , uh , understood in general what what you were after at least the , the number of sessions we had . I think it's a question of degree here . OK , well , one of the things which I think is a very valid thing , like , like , uh , Al's comments about , uh , you know , you should substantiate the requirements , no question about that . They should be clear . They should be clear to you in the sense that you ought to know that what you are doing is , is worthwhile and the stuff is used and it isn't , it isn't wasted somewhere down the line . Somebody isn't just doing it for fun and . We try , uh , that's something we try to iron out pretty hard in our own house , and one of the things I'd like to do is if we run , if you guys end up at uh sometime before the end of of the quarantine period here and have some time , we ought to have that data together by then and then prior to the time that , that , uh , we end up getting you out if you've got a an hour or something . we might be able to go over with you and show you here's here's what we saw with you with the lab data and the whole bit and say because you know it's very hard to get back together again after you get out of here to do that sort of thing . Everybody says they'd like to know what happened to them . We could do that to you in here and tell you that and here are the samples that were used to do that so you . Have some idea understanding about how that happened . Would that be worthwhile to you ? Yeah , the comment was made not from a point of view , a specific complaint about our flight , but just , uh , I think a continuing understanding between the two , directorates . We agree ahead of time because it's , it's the kind of thing , well , just like with other scientific experiments , unless the crew understands the reasons and agrees with it , you know , the thing isn't going to be a successful experiment . Amen . So , uh , it wasn't the comment wasn't made . From a point of criticizing anything specifically about our protocol at all just to reiterate what uh what everybody ought to know but doesn't always think about and I think Chuck also uh Probably the last few weeks before flight is not the time to try to brief the crew on the medical requirements . At that time their thoughts are quite a bit on other things and perhaps it needs to come earlier than that . Uh , that's a good , that's a good point . Uh , I think each one of us is concerned with ourselves medically as , as the medical effects , the physiology of flight , etc . etc . but the last few weeks , uh , you just can't get yourself cranked up to really think about those things . Except for the things that are gonna happen to you so you can be mentally prepared for it . I think I may have precipitated that comment , uh , at least when we got to that area and started that about , uh , and , and I guess it really wasn't a complaint , Chuck , as much as just a statement that it's a drag , you know , going through , uh , collecting urine for 24 hours and so forth , and , and , and , you know , uh . I just wanted to toss it in that you sure hope that it's worthwhile and , and I think it would be interesting to sit down and see how you , what you're really doing with all that . Good . I , I think that's really needed because uh we're trying to do that right now with the Skyline crews to tell you . What we really know about what happens to man , what we know from the Russian side of the thing as to what's happened on even their longer one , put the thing together and say here's what , here's what we don't know and why we need to know . Well , I think I think we understood or I understood your need to . Work out the total body water , but the actual mechanics of how that fit into a 24 hour urine collection 6 times and , and all the blood drawing and how that all fit into the picture , the theoretical picture you were painting for us , I never understood that . Good . OK , fair enough . You know , I think everybody understands all these things . Why don't , uh , why don't we make a specific recommendation at this point ? Now , you know , all the flight crews have a , a training plan which is set up about the time that the flight crews are designated and includes all kinds of things on the simulators and scientific briefings and everything else . And why is , why wouldn't the best way to do it , but actually to schedule a time for medical briefings early . In the training program . Because I think if you all , uh , conversely , if you all feel that , uh , an experiment's worthwhile doing , you want to get your protocol settled early in , in the game so you have all the equipment or whatever you need . Amen . Ready , uh , so it will be , uh , a satisfactory test . So I would suggest that maybe sometime uh something be scheduled in the in the crew training program early in the game and and I should it becomes one of those things you've got to check off like systems briefings and everything else and I should think that briefing should consist of uh . A bit of the theoretical thing you're trying to do followed by the mechanics and the protocol , what that means to you , uh , yeah , that's right , the mechanics of how you go about doing it and the number of punctures and where you're going to do it and how many urine samples and that sort of thing just so the guys understand . Great . OK , will do . I , that's great . Uh , I'd like to go back and pick up one then on , on the , uh , exercise , uh , area . You , you mentioned this in the debrief and you mentioned it again in the , uh , uh , yesterday , but can you give me some idea now you said you missed , uh , as I remember the , the debriefing statements here you commented that you missed one day on the way out and one day on the way back and can you , can you say what you did in time , uh , what , what the exercise . consisted of what you did roughly in time . I know you won't notice it in a minute or a second or anything , but as roughly as you can . And then , uh , what if you have any idea , did you try and judge what you did as far as did you try and get a , a heart rate increase or did you try and judge your your exercise level in any way ? And this is particularly important for us in trying to separate out the effects that are different between the two of you are on the surface versus Stu who was in . In the in the spacecraft all the time , so we want to keep that , we want to get that straight if we can . Could you just sort of brief the exercises to the way you did it ? Maybe each of you have to do it because you probably did it differently . But what we were shooting for was about a 10 minute period per day exclusive of the two days of lunar service activity for the two of us , and , uh , Stu was gonna try to get about a 10 minute period per day for including those days . The uh method of exercise during the ten-minute period was to use this ExoGym device which we have and uh . To operate that in such a fashion that the old what they call the big four where you start out with your with your legs and uh your feet and two loops and your hands controlling the friction device from a crouch position to a full stretch out and do that several times then hold the uh . The uh fixed loops and use the legs on the movable loops and then hold the fixed loop with the , with the toes and use the biceps on the movable loops that's the general pattern that we tried to follow , but we didn't make all of those time periods we missed the uh first day out because of uh . Well , we didn't have it scheduled the first day . Well , it was in the flight plan , but we hadn't , I don't think anybody's going to exercise the first day anyway , uh , yeah , in fact , it should never have been in the flight plan to exercise the first day . Pretty hard to get that in in that first day . I don't see how you had a problem with the docking probe . You don't really need it in that first day anyway pardon ? You don't really need it in that first day . Well , uh , in retrospect , I think that it would probably have alleviated some of the sore back muscles that first day if we gone ahead and done it in my case anyhow . It was kind of like , uh , one of those things where they said , OK , you want to exercise . We put in the flight plan . I said , yeah , we got to have it in the flight plan . We won't do it . What we're going to put it ? I said , put it in before lunch every day , before the mid meal every day , and that's how it got in there . OK . Did you said X or Jim , or is it , is it the Xergenie or Jim ? I think Xer Jim is a trade name . Yeah , they're both similar devices . It's the same thing . It's the friction one , yeah , OK , yeah , OK . And , and so 10 minutes a day is what you had programmed for the thing and did you have any , do you have any , did you feel that you really got a , got a fair amount ? Did you get up any increase in breathing rate or heart rate that you were aware of when you did it ? Yeah , we didn't do it quantitatively , but certainly , uh , yeah , I always tried to stop , uh , short of , of cracking a sweat . It's just not desirable to get all sweaty in the spacecraft , and I felt like I was pulling it somewhere around 10 to 15 minutes . I could feel the heart rate going up and the breathing going up , but I would never do it to the point of a sweat . And it's not a vigorous exercise . It's more of a , it's a tension exercise . I put , I put enough load on it where it was a , a hard pull but a slow pull . OK , did yours go about that same way then for the whole time , even when you were I , I'd like to just summarize exercise , uh , in my case , uh . I , uh , I probably didn't exercise as much in retrospect as I would have if I were doing it again uh for various and sundry reasons , uh . One is , you know , you , you don't feel a need for the exercise . You just gotta say , well , I'm gonna , I'm gonna go do this and uh . There were a couple of times that we got out the , uh , you know , it says exercise period , so we got out the exerciser and Alan would have at it and I'd be doing something and I'd say , well , I'll put it over here and I'll get to it in a minute . And then I know on one occasion , several hours later I finally got around to getting the To get in it and uh and doing some exercise on it . The uh . I'd say probably 5 to 10 minutes was the length of time . I , I would strain pretty hard . I didn't work up a sweat , but you know , you use this thing , you can use it about any way you want . You can drag them through the ropes or it's really designed to where you hold and do an isometric first and then go right from the . Isymmetric into the isotonic and and and you get the whole , the whole smear , uh , so I'd hold uh hold pressure on the thing and and strain against it and you know you can strain as little or as hard as you want , but I'd strain reasonably hard and , and then relax the tension and and pull it up . Uh , but I'm trying to think , I'm sure that I missed , uh , one exercise period on the way out completely that Al and Abe got in . I did no exercise at all in lunar orbit . Uh , the thinking of the , uh , extra gym was , uh , never even crossed . My mind for those two days and then in preparation for uh for entry I said boy I'm really gonna hit that on the way home as it turned out I barely got in the one the one exercise a day . That that we did on the way home , so I , I would say overall uh I probably or I'm sure I didn't uh hit the uh extra gym as much as I probably should have . OK . I don't know how , uh , from my point of view at least , how you , in a case like this where you're trying to correlate the , the relationship of the exercise that Ed and I did , for example . Uh , and its benefits or lack thereof with respect to the , the , uh , lunar surface period which is over 30 hours , and I just think the workload , the basic workload there alone is enough different to . Put that exercise thing down to the noise level . That's contribution down the noise level as far as the two of us are concerned . I think that's probably very right now , I , and I think that the thing we want to know is , you know , was Stu trying to make up for it in some way with exercise in the spacecraft because he obviously , I mean , there's no way he could make up for what you were doing on the lunar surface . He's trying to , but he had a real busy flight plan . Yeah , yeah . I don't think he could do it , and this , this is what I wanted to find out was he , was he trying to do a lot more or something during that time , so . No , I , uh , I wasn't . I , I think that'd be a difficult thing to try to do , really . I , I don't know . You're going to , uh . Maybe with the longer period than in lunar orbit , uh , CMP may not be quite as busy or maybe . I suspect he probably will be . I think it's going to be difficult to , uh , to get in much exercise there , but , uh , no , I wasn't , so it was obvious that's Stu's greater interests were in running the spacecraft and for example , the B-23s took a lot of time because you might otherwise have allowed . That was the kind of , this is the kind of thing I'm talking about . But if you're going to get the individuals to try to exercise and respond to exercise . You're gonna have to get to them really to explain the benefits of the crew as a result of that , right , because it really is an individual thing . That's right , and we haven't tried to set any numbers of times that you do anything or anything like that and so I think we need to really carefully look at , look at that as an area , OK , uh , and , while I , uh , added one that came up . Yesterday when you guys were talking about uh Myrtle reminded me of the and the problems that you had in flight with the the urine kinking of the urine hose and so forth uh how much time did you make a conscious effort uh in in your own particular case because it's important trying to chase down your status postflight here . of , uh , the time that you had the urine device on , did , did you have it ? Me ? Well , it wasn't my hose , it was kinked , you know . Right , right . It was Al's . I get twice Al's was , is that right ? Yeah . Apparently all the time . All the time , huh ? We , uh . Oh , yeah . We had it on . I guess we'll have to look back on the transcript or look back over the flight plan and Nova and we took it off the first time . We all unsuited at the same time , which was about , uh , 66 hours , 7 hours into the flight , right ? Somewhere in there . And uh we put the UCTAs on uh PDI morning . And we took them off only when we got back to the spacecraft after docking . And it was all for those two periods . Only . And I never experienced any discomfort . I never had any problems whatsoever that , uh , we discussed preflight . No symptoms , no , uh , of any sort . Great . Well , it looks like you know we haven't had any and you did well . How did you feel , uh , that's another one we might just get out the way on fluid intake , it sounds like you all thought the water was great and so you were , you were drinking well . Uh , did , did you , were you trying to force fluids ? Were you trying to consciously force fluids ? Yeah , I think . You and I will . Uh , in my case anyhow . Yeah . I tried to drink , take a drink out of the water gun about every time I went by it . I did find that I preferred the juices to water and surprisingly enough , as much as I , Did not care for the juices pre-flight , particularly , I didn't crave them or anything . Uh , we were drinking a couple of juices per meal , a large portion of the time . I was , and in addition , uh , taking a shot from the water gun about every time I'd go buy it . I , I , I forced myself to drink the water , uh , not that it tasted bad or anything , but just , just to keep the fluid intake up , and so I would , I would drink water , uh . You know , like it says every time you pass the water gun , you say , well , I think I'll try some of that , and one person would take a drink of water and pass it , pass it around and would , would put it back up . Did , uh , is there any chance though you , you stayed in the debriefing , you , you felt you drank about half as many juices as they did because I'd say that's probably a good average . Yeah , they , they , no , I'd say probably say 1/3 less , 1/3 . Yeah . Yeah . And juices . Um-hum . OK . Yeah , you drank two juices at some . Yeah , I drank two occasionally toward the , toward the end , I was , I was drinking two more than , uh , I was , because a lot of times you'd drink a cocoa and a juice and I'd bypass the cocoa , uh , and I'd just drink a juice . So , I'd say probably , and this is a wag , but I'd say a third less juice than they did . OK , well , I think I kind of decided I was gonna try and do everything I could to . To , uh , End up in as good shape as I could at the end of the mission , which included uh keeping the fluid intake and the food intake up as well as the exercise and uh that's generally what we try to do . You did a great job of it we had to try to get two juices per per meal most of the time . OK , there was a , a question here about did , uh , for you particularly , did you eat more ? Do you feel while you were , while they were with you , Alan Edward with you in the spacecraft and when you were alone , eat and drink better ? I saw in your food thing , well , I'd say , uh , excuse me , go ahead . I saw in your food , uh , uh , comments there that , that you , you had difficulty , you know , the food preparation thing you'd have preferred if you'd have had some like some canned things you could have opened quickly and gotten to when you were alone that way , and I can surely understand that . I think it's something we ought to look at . But , well , that's the way I did eat , uh , that's because we had them there . I , I guess it didn't come out right because that's the way I did eat and then I would say , uh . I'd say the answer to your question would be yes , uh , that . That I ate more when when they were in there and but the idea of people being together is is nothing in that it's a time factor uh . You know during the coast during the coast phase you have more , uh , you have more time to , you know , to worry about eating , uh , during that lunar orbit phase I didn't have any time at all and , uh , to , you know , any extra time and particularly with the troubleshooting the highon and so forth , uh , so , uh . I didn't have the inclination nor want to go to the trouble of trying to mix up a a meal as such and I didn't much like that the . Going to all that trouble anyway , so , uh , I opened up , you know , a can of that chicken salad , I think it was , and I had that for breakfast and , uh , then a wet pack and , you know , that's the type of food that you can really get to in a hurry and eat . Right . So I wouldn't say overall that , uh , that I probably ended up eating too much less , but it was a little different rather than sitting down and mixing up a rehydratable pack and . So forth . So the total amount you don't think was any different because you're there , but it was just different kinds of food then ? It may have been a little less , but , uh , do you , do you personally feel that you know the weight loss is involved here and you know yours , you know that they , uh , you got 1 pound each here and you got a , a , a 10 pound one , and I heard your comment about the scale . Yesterday too , but , uh , with , do you have any personal reason why you think there's that much difference in the weight loss ? I mean , is there anything that you know that you've personally tried to account for it other than the , than the food intake , water intake , or anything of that sort ? No , I sus I , I'm not sure that there's anything magic about uh . About the zerog or the flag , I , I would suspect I'd probably lost several pounds if I'd eaten that same , uh same menu and sat right here , uh . I , uh , I probably think , uh , that I was , uh , 3 or 4 pounds overweight when I went into the flight , uh , as a matter of fact , you know , I'm not a big eater , and , uh , during most of my , uh , during most of the time you come up on training . Uh , I drink a can of Sego and a can of V8 juice for breakfast , and then I eat a sandwich for lunch and , uh , you know , maybe drink , uh , two or three cans of beer and eat a sandwich in the evening and , you know , I , yeah , you know , you know , I can go for days on a menu like that and I don't know how many calories all that adds up to , but , uh , you know , it's , it's , it's not a really a , a high calorie . Uh , diet , and I would say that that pretty much was my diet for 3 months prior to going into quarantine was just about what I , uh , what I stated there . And then when we got into quarantine , well then I started eating , eating more for breakfast and eating a bigger meal in the evening and uh so I think I probably was 3 or 4 pounds heavy going in , going into the flight and uh . So I , uh , I think , uh , the weight loss may be overplayed a little bit because I think I , uh , had a few extra pounds and then plus I don't think that , uh , maybe we picked the right , uh , the , the right weight up on the , on the rolling scales , but , uh , that's neither here nor there , you know . Well , we can probably show you something about that . From when we get your lab material pulled together , I think we'd be able to give you a better handle on that as to whether , you know , it really was something that had to do with the zero G state or not . We hope we'll be able to do that . So , we'll , we'll try . Well , if I could just add a general comment , which I think reflects the consensus here , the three of us , that , that with respect to the food in general , the type of food , the method by which it was packaged and so on , And uh , and the degree to which we like it , disliked it was primarily a function of the , uh , level of activity in the flight plan that the business of going into the pantry and taking time to select foods and drinks and so on is fine during the quiet periods of coast that things like uh . Like spoon spoon packages are good if the level of activity is not too high , but certainly if the level of activity is high , the wet packs and the cans , and that's about all you want to take time to fool with . I think this is a general comment that really reflects our consensus . It was , it was a time consuming part of the day to prepare . Pills , uh , get them all , get them out of the , the food box , get them all laid out , cut all the tops off of them , get all the water into them , get a massaged and go about eating . Get the pill back in there . Get the pill back , you know it , it , it took a lot of time . It's an effort . You're right . And , uh , you know , it's a lot easier to open up a can and a wet pack and then , uh , then you . Then you think it's a lot of trouble to even mix up the juice , but , uh , you know , that , that in that way you got your meal and you're through and you're on your way . Right . OK . The cooking problems is , uh , is still a problem which has been fairly , fairly common , I guess as a Yeah , I think , I think if you got plenty of time , you don't mind spending an hour or so . As a matter of fact , it's a very pleasant hour . It gets rid of that type . Very effectively , but I , but I would say in my case that watching these guys eat , you know , they , they went right down the menu , and , uh , so I thought , uh , you know , I , uh , I really , I really should do that , but , uh , I just didn't have an inclination to eat that much and , uh , you know , even though you know in your own mind , you know , hey , you ought to do this , you know , and you ought to keep yourself . You know , eat just as much as you possibly can . I just couldn't get around to doing it . In fact , several times I'd mix the food up and then by the time I'd eat a couple of packages , you know , I just couldn't get to the , to the third package , and so I'd put it back in the pantry . Well , Stu , uh , one of the things that's going to come out of that is somebody , you know , reading the , the , the , uh , debriefing itself . The obvious question comes up , OK , was your loss of it , your lack of appetite itself . Was it just plain lack of appetite , or did you really have any , any discomfort in your , as far as the gut was concerned at all , anything that , that you felt was pathological in , in , uh , your loss of appetite due to the environment or anything ? No , no , I , I don't think there's anything that like I say , I think it , it boils down to a lot of just too much food , you know , if you , you bundle up one of those meals . And uh there's just too much there to eat . Were any of you ever thirsty in flight ? You were dry , yeah , I , I , you were dry , uh , quite a bit , you know , you'd have a sensation of dryness , and you'd want , and water , you know , juice would make you want some while , yeah . Did you , while we're at it , we might just wipe out the water . Did you guys drink the water in your suits ? The EVA . I drank all of his . I just drank about 30 of them I guess . About 30 . On the first one , I don't know how much of mine I drank . I thought I emptied the bag , but apparently , uh , the walls of the bag got around the drink tube and I didn't get it all out because it drained down around my neck during the sleep period . OK . OK . I had a leaky one also , which I took out between EVAs . OK . Did you fill them up again then when you went out the second EV ? No . And you drank about , you think you drank about 30 years both times ? I'd say , yeah , I didn't really stop to drink too much . Yeah . OK . And I drank on mine , the second EVA , uh , And I can't remember whether I drank it all or not . If I didn't , there may be some still in it . OK . All right . And one other comment on , while we're on that eating , before I forget , uh , we ran completely out of these , uh , bite-sized , uh , packages , you know , and to me that was the best , the best thing we had , these little , you know , turkey sandwiches , cheese sandwiches , and , uh , and that sort of thing because that was a no . Sweat operation . You just clip that off in a can of juice and you could go at it . So I really liked those and I ate all those generally that I could get my hands on and we ran out of those . Well , we ran out of most everything else too . No , not really . I had all kinds of food . If I may make a comment , uh , to that of mine about , about his , uh , eating and drinking habits , uh , this flight plan is really something that he worked on , developed for the flight . It's , it's a busy flight plan . It's a full one , and it was my impression that he was more interested in being sure that the flight plan was done properly than , uh , than eating . Oh yeah , I think that affected it to a great degree , which again gets back to the level of activity versus the . If you guys can get a little , for example , those drink bags , get a little diaphragm on the end to stick over a needle and pump the water in that way and shake it up , pull the plug out and drink it out of the same deal , that would be a lot easier for those drinks . You mean for the for the juices and things you mean all the cutting , yeah , so that you don't , so you don't end up having to sort of feel you got to drink the whole thing once you get it done you see you got to drink back and you got a little gnarled the thing that's all sucked in the plastic is all folded down unless you got it exactly right . First of all , you can't get out of the nozzle without having it leak . Then you get it all done , then you got to go cut the other end . And I was just thinking maybe it might be an easier way to put a diaphragm fitting on there that will you could stick over a hypodermic type of thing and get the water in that way might be a little bit quicker way to do it . OK . Anything you do to make it easier is gonna help increase the consumption , particularly during busy time periods . OK , but , uh , could we get you , uh , and this is gonna involve just really , uh , Alan , and , uh , Ed , we , we'd like to have you describe . As well as as you can , the things that you did with your uh with your bio instrumentation harnesses when because it's very hard for us to be sure exactly what happened we don't have that stuff back yet we're gonna set up we've got got to develop a plan to troubleshoot it and as I under the thing that happened with yours out just from our point the actions , not the words , huh ? Pardon ? You want the actions , not the words the actions not the words , yeah , OK . Well , you said in some of the words too . But what from our point of view what happened with your particular uh uh harness is everything was fine when everybody left the the the uh MSOB OK ? we got when you got into the spacecraft right after you got apparently when you were getting cinched down somehow , uh , because we had about 3 minutes or so after you were in the in the couch of good data on you , then we began to get erratic data . It began to wander the baseline began to wander all over the place . Uh , that continued to get worse and worse , and pretty soon it was going just full scale , which was totally unreadable . So the question was , OK , it was a question about hatch closure at that point in time . We , uh , decided right , right then I said , well , hell , we're gonna go , we're gonna go without that because I'm sure it's a sensor , and the only way to get at it anyway if you , we asked you then to try and press on those things . If that wouldn't do it , if that wouldn't reseed it , uh , then the , the first opportunity would be when we got you actually in flight . Now we don't know why , but it came back . It was gone still , uh , when you went over Australia as you came back up on the states magically , there we had data , and we went back to the MSOB from the firing room to catch that pass , and there you were , whap , that was beautiful , just as if nothing had ever happened . And you hadn't done a thing because then we asked them , you know , have you done anything ? Now , uh , as we understand when you looked at that sensor then that you did have some material that had leaked out from under , underneath it , and you , and we understand that you replaced that you cleaned up and replaced that sensor , is that right ? We didn't replace the sensor , no . OK , just to clean cleaned it off , refilled it , put a new sticky back on it , and put it back on . Yeah , OK . That was the second day of the flight though . Yeah , the day , right , yeah , that , that was the first time that we really , and that we asked you to do that then because we thought we'd get it out of the way before you got into the , OK , and then you had another I also changed the adapter , the CWG adapter , because at one time on the flight they said my comm wasn't very good . Yeah , your comm was terrible , right ? We had a spare adapter . Uh , so we changed that . Uh , exactly when that was , I don't know , but . That was pretty early too . I think it was the first day . Yeah , I think it was the first day . Uh , uh , well , that was the Lord . That wouldn't have anything to do with the launch problem because , of course , uh . No . And we had a , we had a , uh , respiration on you . You can see respiration , but we didn't have the . That's good . Yeah , yeah , but we didn't have an ECG . That's very reassuring to me . That's right . Good . Yeah , can you correlate the reappearance of your EKG signal with any flight plane activity that you might have been doing ? I sure can . I'm just as mystified about that as you were . I tried to press it through the suit and everything . It happened you can't feel anything through the suit . Well , you were free then though . You had your helmet and gloves off . It was one hour and 30 minutes GET . I don't know if that rings any bells to you . Helmets and gloves are off at that time and we're moving around with the post insertion checklist and there's some movement in the couch , so I dive in and get some things and pull them out and do that sort of stuff . It's probably , it's just gotta be that you were probably just , it was in the cinching down in the in the couch that it probably loosened that edge of that sensor somehow a little bit and uh I don't know why . Right . Or put a crimp in a lead or brought it into contact with something else , yeah , because it sure came back fine after that . OK . Then the second time , what , what else then did you have with , with yours , Al , from your point ? What else did you do to the thing on ? The only other thing I noticed was about the next to the last day that the thread coupling between the sensor line , sensor harness , and the belt . Little transducer in the belt . Yeah , on top of the signal conditioning . Yeah , had to strip the threads . I could get it to hold a little bit , and , uh , apparently the signal was fine , then it would slip off . Right , it came back beautifully when you tighten it . But then when I unsuited at the end , I noticed that was loose , so . OK . The threads apparently stripped on that . I got it cranked down too hard . Did , uh , excuse me . Did , did you , To , uh , routinely , uh , disconnect that connector at the signal conditioner for sleep or , for , uh , bowel movements or anything like that , for bowel movements and for swabbing down , cleaning out process , yeah . Anytime , anytime you pulled your clothes off to either change clothes or , or , uh , put on the LCG or use the blue bags , what have you , we all end up doing that . OK . OK . And then , uh , you didn't replace anything . You didn't do it , have to , uh , reseat any sensor after that . That was the only other thing you had was the was the only time I took a sensor off . Was that first . That call was correct because when we took it off you could see the seepage of . Electrolyte right . Same with the , OK . How about yours then ? The only thing I replaced was that one sensor which one was it ? And it was , uh , same replace the whole sensor . I don't mean replacements and trap . We pulled it off , cleaned it out , refilled it with electrolyte , put it back on . It was the same , just the same outfit donuts , no sticky donut , OK . You did not take the harness out of the kit and replace the whole thing , OK , because that's what we thought you had done that , and , uh , that you called and asked me that , but there wasn't time to do it , so we took , I'm glad you couldn't hear what we said when we , when you guys said that . We took the chance that the real problem was simply the sensor and the electrolyte , and that's what it was . That's exactly what it was . We couldn't have picked a worse time from the standpoint of timeline . Is that right ? We're just getting ready to go into the lab , you know , and boy , everybody's all and elbows and suits and underwear and gear and books and everything all over the place . And I , I was sitting there half dressed . I didn't want to go any further until we got a go on it . We couldn't get the high bit rate up for you guys to look at it . Right . And so I remember that . There just wasn't any time left , so we changed that . And I went ahead and dressed . Hey Ed , you know , when you came up there though , the , the , uh , the data , you gave us about 2 minutes when the high gain did lock on and we got 2 minutes of data and it still showed the the loose sensor . Now what did you , what did you do the second time ? Did you , uh , you came up and asked us how the data looked , and we said it looked poor , yet we gave you no go on the suiting to to change out the harness . I don't recall exactly the sequence of events . When , when I called and asked for you to check it , as far as I know , we did nothing after that except make sure everything was cinched down and went ahead and dressed . Didn't , didn't you do something with the , with the fluid in there ? Yeah , but I had already done it at that point . I did that once . We did the , I changed the electrolyte when I called and asked you guys to check it . Uh , I did nothing after that except just make sure everything was secure , yeah , because you see , the first time you called the data was poor , and that was the basis for the call to change out the whole harness because we said , well , it wasn't that sensor and we didn't have time to talk to you because LOS was coming up , so we said go ahead and change out the whole thing . But whatever you did , they subsequently corrected it because it came back beautifully , so we assumed you'd just change out the whole harness . We sprinkle a little holy water on it , yeah , yeah . See , now that you mention it , you know , I just can't remember precisely when we changed it , but I'm , but I'm thinking that it was already changed at that point . Oh , OK . And it , uh , it was this the lower sternum ? It was the lower sternum . Same as same as Al's . Then they changed . It was electrolyte that was replaced . Yeah . What I've been taking it off by changing , taking it off and cleaning it , putting little . Put it back , just sticking it back . OK . And , and you think you did that before LOS ? Yeah , he probably did . What we're thinking now happened probably took a while for it to seep properly , and , uh , when he came around it was good because . Well , his state stayed good then and then we were having trouble with yours going and you began to get this wandering baseline on yours again before the , you know , after we got into the limb so there was a question in our minds about it is there any way we could do to , to , to get that better , you know , to make that better and we're trying to find , trying to figure some way could you reach around when you were in the soup ? Is there any way you could get . That that thing if you took like after the EVA , if you ended up taking the helmet off , uh , could you get down into the , into the suit here you really have to have the upper torso garment , uh , the upper part of the torso garment clear of the body in order to be able to feel that in order to even feel it . There's no way you can definitely tell you know the other guy goes through the back zippered around in front that we tried that on the ground to see if you could do that and that's pretty hard to do . We found that the most you can do is press on it after all that time quarantined , that's pretty dangerous too , yeah , yeah . Depends on where your hands end up . OK . All right . Forget the EBA . Just keep fooling with my sensor . You've got 2 hours to stop that . Oh , OK . Uh , did , uh , the , the thing we got from the sleep , and I , uh , which I think is fairly well covered , but if you have anything to add to that , well , we , we'd like you to , but what we got out of it is that all of you pretty well never really had a , a solid long sleep period that it was broken and it was things like a couple of hours at a time or something , and I gather that the , the reasons for that varied . You had , uh . Some difficulty with , with the , uh , wanting , wanting to feel some pressure in Ed's case I know and this Al mentioned this too and , and , uh , Stu , uh didn't like the couch and , and then he ended up uh in the limb the , the thing was being in the suits all the time and then the tilt of the limb too . Both those things probably had a lot to do with the sleep activity . Is there anything else that you can that you that you think you can add ? Did you feel that you , that you were rested enough to do the task even with the sleep that you had ? Yeah , but I think we were working on reserves . Yeah , I do too . Well , there were two days that we felt sloppy . One was the 2nd day out after the after the excitement of the launch and all that . Activity and being coming , becoming acclimated to the new environment . So we felt like we weren't really clicking along too well um . Yeah , and the day after TEI , although we all apparently slept better after TEI that night , I guess it was probably the in terms of continuous sleep was probably the best night that we had . Still , the next day we felt like we were not really organized and we're getting things done , but the little things were not being handled as neatly as we would like to see them . So these are the only two days we felt that we weren't on top of the bloodline . I think Chuck , I feel that that for no longer than we worked for 9 days that you can get along on a fairly small amount of sleep and just your reserves and your discipline and everything else makes you do the job properly , but in my case I felt very strongly that I was on reserves , that physically I was going downhill , and it was of some . Concern to me that I wasn't getting enough sleep . I knew I wasn't getting enough sleep , and yet I felt fairly wide awake and alert on most of the days except the two days I was talking about . But sleeping to me was a very insecure experience . And now how do you mean insecure ? You mean because of this wanting , wanting something , yeah , wanting to feel like you , the best I can say , feel like you were in a bed . Yeah . Wanting to feel some pressure , or to be lying on something . It was a pleasant you turn the tape recorder . I , I knew we'd get back to that . Uh , it was really a pleasant experience to be in zerog during the daytime . I thought it wasn't quite so pleasant an experience at night . Well , did you feel that brings up this thing ? Did you feel , I gather from Al's comments in particular , uh , this business of using your legs and your , and your , uh , feet to try and hang on to something which has been described by , by . Other guys too at at some length , uh , did , did you have a feeling that that was the cause of this muscle business in your back more than because you know that's been described and they've never been able to really put a handle on why they felt they had that they've had this sort of a feeling that if they could just stretch that real good it'd be great . You think it is due to the fact that you had were trying to lock onto something . Yeah , as soon as that's what I analyzed it after the first couple of days , I think we discussed it as a matter of fact , and so we started exercising and then deliberately take time out to relax not only during the sleep period but also try to adapt ourselves to a relaxed state during the awake periods in the seats or on the optics or in the tunnel or something . And after the 2nd day . Kind of went away . Yeah , that , that small of the back problem was gone after a couple of days . And uh in fact , I was kind of surprised at , at that , I woke up that first morning and my back had bothered me during the night and uh I didn't realize that uh Alan Ed's had a back was bothering him at that time too , you know , and I said . You know , I really didn't get that much sleep , but this sounds crazy as all hell because I can lay on that big fine king size bed at the house , and if I get a lot of sleep , you know , if I lay there for say 10 or 11 hours , why , uh , the small of my back bothers me , and I , and I said to these guys , I said , hey , this is crazy . I didn't sleep that much last night , but my back feels just like I've got about 11 hours sleep , and they said , well , mine does too , and then , you know , then we got to talking about it and uh but it was . There and it was very conscious to me that first night . In fact , I thought probably my back kept me from going to sleep as much as the new environment . Yeah . Uh , rather than the zero G because I was always conscious of my back bothering me . Did you ever think about taking aspirin or anything to do anything with that ? Did you ? I've never take aspirin at all . For the . No . For the a thing ? I think until the time we discussed it , I was convinced that the reason I was feeling bad in the back was , Just not urinating for so long during that whole . I wondered if you wouldn't think that . I did think that . Yeah . And then after we started discussing it , I said , well , that may not be the problem or if so , that's just part of the problem . Everybody's got it . Everybody's got it . Yeah . And I agree with that it has something to do with the way you try to use your feet , uh , to , to stabilize yourself . And I found , I believe , although I couldn't see myself , I believe that when I was relaxing in the spacecraft , I was in a curved position . And it felt good to to throw the shoulders back and straighten out or to take the extra gym and get some tension on those back muscles . You , you tend to assume a sort of it's sort of like a fetal position . If you just totally relax your legs will tend to , to float up and come , come up in a sort of a semi-seated and your hands would tend to float out about like this and your back tends to bend them so it tends to assume that kind of a position if you just let them . All your muscles go , so you don't have any muscle pulled up . Oh , I'll tell you that one of the good things for that back too is just exactly that position . Just get yourself up like this . That's right . And , and I know that first night when my back was bothering me , I , I tried to sleep a good bit . I'd reach down and grab a hold of my , of my booties , and I would lay there like that with pulling some pressure on my legs , and it would , and it would really help that , that smaller your back , uh . I found both things either straighten it out to put some tension on the back muscles , or as Stu says , double on out and pull the other way . Did , how about when you got back onto the carrier now and you got into a bed then for the first time back on , on , uh , in a 1G environment , did you have any feeling ? Did you have the feeling that you were real heavy , that you were sinking into the bed ? Did you have that when you were on a table or anything on the X-ray table or anything of that sort ? None of you experienced that . How about weight of clothes ? Did you have a pants were too heavy or they were falling or anything like that when you first got back ? The only thing I can remember about laying down on the bunk was it was uh it was a good relief to be able to lay on your , on your stomach , you know , I , I generally , I don't know which way I sleep most , back or stomach or what , but you know , I always had the impression no matter in what position you are in the , in the spacecraft , you're on your back . And , uh , so I remember thinking of that . The first thing I laid down in the bunk was I stretched out on my back and I thought , gee , I've been this way for 9 days . I think I'll turn over . So I rolled over on my stomach . It felt pretty good . OK . Did any of you have any dreams at all ? Did you ever dream of flying at all ? I did , but I couldn't for the life of me recall . Well , that's . That doesn't matter . Yeah , I , I had dreams . But you did have dream activity at least in the . Yeah . Syringes . Good . OK . Yeah , I think of that heavy feeling junk , uh , The only time I noticed it was after we had landed , we're still in the spacecraft . We unstrapped and the spacecraft was bobbing around a little bit but not too much . Got down on the LEB right away and the first couple of steps , combination of the rocket and spacecraft and . Being in 1G again for perhaps , uh , I don't know , 30 seconds , no more than that , certainly . That was my experience too . And I started doing some deep knee bends right away for , you know , maybe 1012 of those babies and , uh , and I was right back at home again and continued to feel that way . No muscle soreness , no feeling of heaviness or anything . Did you , this feeling that you experienced when you first went down to the LAB , was that , was that all over or was that just heaviness in the legs or did you just feel heavy all over for a few seconds all over just all over . How about when you , when you first got , got some G on , on reentry , did , did you have a sensation that you had a lot more G than , than you're really registering ? Did you go through that ? I don't remember anything over 2g . Was I supposed to ? Of course these two guys were you don't . You blanked out , everybody else has done . No , I think you become uh very sensitive to , uh , G , like even , even on , uh , in , in the spacecraft , you know , or the , uh , well , that'd be just the one only time you'd really feel a G would be the LH , as well as the SPS engine , of course , you know it , but on entry , certainly , you know , as you're going through 1G . Uh , it certainly doesn't seem like one G . It , it's , you're , you're sensitive to the G . Since , uh , I wasn't quite as busy during that initial period as , as they were . I didn't have tracking tasks to keep me occupied . Uh , I probably felt it more or was conscious of it more than they were , and it felt to me like one hell of a load , uh . In particular , my one task was to be watching the time and I couldn't get my arm up to see the watches until after PG let off . And then about 4 or 5G I could pull my arm up and take a look at it . OK . Uh , and I had the same sensation that I did right after I got out of the couch , I felt very , very heavy and then with just a little bit of motion , it seemed to go away . And I'd say it kind of described a very uh sharp rise , the return to normal was a very sharp rise and then an asymptotic to , to 1g because I still stumbled a couple of times getting out of the helicopter , but I felt fine except I just didn't have the sureness of footing that I would like to have . But that didn't last as far as footing , you know , that's an interesting thing . Uh that the Russians had after their 18 day fight they had some real marked mobility problems that lasted for days and you didn't have , uh , we've never had anything of that degree we've always had some initial footing problem , you know , just getting , getting used to being back in the 1G environment and then you're on a ship too , which is moving around and uh this didn't last for any of you for longer . Than a few minutes really getting out of the house . I never felt lightheaded at all . No , neither did I lightheaded . How about putting your feet in the right place ? Did you feel like when you were walking that you were walking normally on the , that your steps were normal and everything , you didn't have to worry about where your feet were ? No , I , I think that up to the point we got in the MQF , I felt that , uh , I took a little care to make sure my foot was going where it was supposed to be going , but it wasn't out of the ordinary . You know , really severe or anything . It seemed to be improving very rapidly from a very heavy state for the 1st 30 to 45 seconds after I got out of the couch to within an hour or so after I was in the MQF , the footing was very short , but I do remember stumbling once going to into the MQF from the helicopter , uh , and I didn't see anything to stumble over . I just , I stumbled . You know , I think , hell , you'd do that right now though . If you're going to walk out of that door with a television camera on you and you're going to walk up to the front steps , you'd be more conscious of your footing . Exactly what I was you'd be more conscious of your footing whether or not you'd been in zerog or not . Sure , if you're carrying a load , you're going to look very carefully where you're sitting . You don't want to get knocked down , yeah , and you , you in particular . I know that you know you've just come back from a flight and people are going to be watching how you're walking and and all of this stuff , so you know it's in your mind and you know you've got to walk this 30 ft to the MQF so just naturally you're you're more conscious of where you're going to put your foot . I may have psyched myself into stumbling for that reason , but nevertheless I did stumble . In spite of the fact that I was conscious of the fact that TV cameras were on , OK , did , uh , did , did you notice any distortion of , of , uh , your facial features at all ? Did you , we , when you look at the TV , the in-flight TV as we watched you , you know , when inside the spacecraft . Uh , you get the impression that , that your faces are not like they are now , that , that they're much rounder , that that's a , that's a thing that you see on the TV . Is that true ? Is that , did you feel that when you were looking at each other ? No , but I , I observed that when I saw a picture of us taken from that TV , and I didn't think anything about it until you mentioned it . It looks , you look quite round . You , you look , you look much different than you , than , than you do now . It takes , it's very rounded , and you , but you weren't aware of that looking at each other . You , you know , I , uh , Al Bean had made a comment of that in the , in the 12 report that after he got into orbit , he looked around and , and everybody looked 20 pounds heavier and I remembered that and , uh , I , I , I looked at these guys , you know , they looked just as bad then as , as they do now . Uh , I , I had remembered that comment from , from Al Bean's report and I really didn't notice it . Yeah , they were the 12 crew , I guess , been the one that was the most impressed with that of anybody , and they noted that they felt even that they , they had redness of the face for several hours after they first , uh , achieved orbit . But , it's the general feeling of fullness , but I mean just to look at a person and see , see his face puffed up . I , I didn't notice that at all . Maybe it was just lack of observation , but uh . I remember for the 1st 5 hours we were too busy doing other things . Observed that . Did , did you have any sensation that in the 1st 24 hours in flight that you urinated more than you normally would than you did the rest of the flight time ? That's a hard thing to remember , but do you , do you have any idea that you did that at all ? I know that at all . I never used my , uh , UCTA . That first one was a whopper . I know that . Of course , you got a lot of excitement to make it a Whopper anyway , so it's hard to . No , no real one way or the other . OK , uh , was the , can you comment on the work that you did EVA out on the , on the lunar surface as far as , as what you , you felt based versus your ground . training , did you , do you think it was harder , easier , or about the same ? And secondly , as a second question to that , did you , did either of you feel really physically tired to , to the point that you knew that you were really tired during , during the EBAs , even going out and cold ? I felt , of course it was an order of magnitude easier than 1G training , just no comparison at all as we expected it to be , uh . And as far as being tired , I think I had already made up my mind that I did not want to sweat on the moon , that I was going to keep the water up , and I was going to keep rested enough so that I didn't sweat for consumables and for fatigue purposes , so I never really felt tired . I did feel occasionally . That I was approaching the point where I'd have to have more cooling or take a break , but it wasn't because of a tired feeling . It was the desire to program and plan consumables the way we wanted to and not , not be high . So I , I felt in my mind that I was stopping short of the point of fatigue as a direct plan of not wanting to use up consumables . How about you ? Well , it's kind of hard to equate the pre-flight stuff with flight stuff . First place , you're not using the LCG and the pre-flight stuff , and you're lifting one , essentially 1G pieces of equipment around and so on , uh , so it's pretty hard to equate the two in my mind as to whether it was harder or easier in flight from the standpoint of the total workout , uh . But certainly the standpoint of ease and mobility and so on , as Ed says it's a lot easier to get around . I think you travel a lot faster and easier on the lunar surface is a general comment to start off with , uh , EBA one , I did not feel uncomfortable at any time at all . EVA too , I think the fact that I . Aware of the workload was manifested primarily in the respiration rate as opposed to anything else . I didn't feel as though , uh . Body heat was , uh , was going up too much . The deep body heat was going up too much . I think this is primarily because of the circulating fluid in the LCG . And uh I was not aware of any profuse , profuse sweating , just a little faint tinge of uh of sweating , a blush or whatever you wanna call it , was when I went to the medium flow on the water . So I think , and of course you're not really aware of uh increasing the heart rate either unless you specifically stop and measure it somehow . So I think to me the , the thing that was most obvious about the the increased workload was the respiration rate and at times I think we suggested climbing the steepest grade or the crater that uh . Uh , we stop and take a rest and you all suggest that . But uh the standpoint of being uh tired to the degree where I didn't want to press on after a short rest period , no , I didn't feel that at any time until after the two days was over . When we were back in the command module never really felt like I was behind uh the power curve as far as the total work was concerned . Well , we'll , we'll try and give you some firm feeling for what happened with your EVAs when we do this , uh , later , you know , we can show you actually what , what , you know , you did have some times where you both got heart rates that were up in the 150 area . You , uh , and this is why we felt , and your respiratory rates were very audible and . Uh , we didn't have a respiration trace on you at that time , as you know , but you , you did have very audible respiratory rates , and it was obvious that you were increasing those . And , uh , now I think you began to , to , to store , I think you , the thing is you kept yours on men for a long time and , and then when you did turn up to , to medium flow , you just left it there a short period of time and it didn't , it didn't kick your rate down as much because you still were . Maintaining some of that heat in there now it wasn't enough to make you sweat apparently . And then when you started doing that , turning it on a little bit longer each time you just , it just settled right back down . You didn't have any trouble with it at all , but both of you came down very well when you would rest your rates dropped down and that's contrary to what happened on 12 where they didn't drop down when they rested and yours , yours did very well . They just dropped . They come right on down as soon as you stop doing the activity , so that that . Do you have a feeling that you could have , uh , do you have a feeling , any recommendations about extending EVAs now ? I mean , do you , do you feel that it would be possible with proper proper consumables , of course , that , that you could , that it's physically possible to do that ? I sure do . I , the thing that bothered me was the worrying about consumables . I knowing that we were getting a higher metabolic load , the higher heart rate , more oxygen consumption going up cone crater , and that I was spending more time on , uh , between minimum and intermediate cooling . Uh , because we were rushing , deliberately rushing to try to make up time , I started worrying about consumables and , uh , especially in the water and the oxygen , and I , I felt that was a limiting factor . I didn't feel that I was the limiting factor . Just the oxygen and the water I was consuming were , were bothering me . Well , we tried to get . the word that you know that you were pretty fat on consumables really at the time we thought you were trying to save consumables obviously yeah we were we were , yeah , and it , and understandably so and so we wanted you to know that you , you had enough and you could go to medium flow without really getting yourself in a hole was the thing we wanted you to know . And after you did that , I , I spent considerably more time on . Uh , between minimum and intermediate , yeah , yeah , yeah , you both did , didn't incidentally , I don't think , I think that the , the comment is . I'd like to comment about total workload with respect to the to the two day period . I , I wouldn't want to see a crew ever plan to do any more than we did in those two days . Amen . As far as I'm concerned , that's about as heavy a workload as anybody ought to do . And certainly if you're going to go out for longer periods of EBA , you ought to allow longer periods of rest in between . Amen , and make sure somehow that they get the rest . Just allowing the time doesn't . Necessarily . Well , tell me , if you had , you know , in the , in the limb , I , I gather one of the things that you think would help , of course , would be getting out of a suit . That certainly would help if you could get out of a suit and a limb . No question about that . If you had something for sleep , would you take it ? Would , would you guys have taken in a limb if you had had something for sleep , do you think so . I don't think so because what I don't think , I don't know about it , but I certainly don't take that . Medication here on the ground , it's an individual thing quite obviously and it , you know , it just depends on things as closely in space as you can but the ground is probably the way everybody would . So if you have people that do that in the ground probably would help them in the . I'd prefer to see us use a more natural means of getting to sleep as opposed to an artificial means . You'd like to sleep off . Back to that again . I think the suit's a big thing as far as that's concerned . Yeah . It keeps coming up . Couldn't roll around . You know , even , you couldn't roll around in the hammock and the neck ring would hit the back of the neck and , uh . Yeah . There was 11 thing , Chuck , about the fatigue . The only thing that I felt fatigued , any muscles that I felt fatigued was the hand muscle in the right hand . Because of the uh of that glove because you were fighting that glove , yeah , and working the core tubes , getting unscrewing the cord tubes , one of them I couldn't get by myself , getting the caps off of them , uh , that was very fatiguing , and that arm gave out . How about when you're carrying a barbell out there and you're getting this thing you said you had to do it well that was tiring just because it's so cumbersome and it was flopping all around , but I eventually . Put it across my arms like that and just aside from the , the workload of carrying it out , it was no problem . It was heavy . Was the weight seem different because you commented at the time and it sounded and it looked like you were having trouble getting out there with that thing . Was it the weight of it or was it just the fact that it was vibrating , that it was sort of like a fish ? It was mostly the , the vibration of it , just the flopping of it . However , uh , I think that it was heavier than I expected from the 16G mockup . Uh-huh . But the , uh , we had never carried it that far in training , and I think we've made that recommendation that at least once the guys ought to carry it , uh , the whole way , the whole way . But it was primarily the flopping of those weights on the end that were giving me trouble . OK , let's get the , uh , I gather that on this bowel movement thing that , uh , the preps and so forth you had a good comment in there that that that went fairly well and you all did the same thing we knew pre-flight anyway . Now , how did it work out though on the thing do you remember ? Can you just tell us each , each one how you went ? I gather Ed went almost to the end without having one according to a comment . Where , where did , where did you go ? When did you ? I went to the morning of the 8th day . To the morning of the 8th day was the 1st 1 . And uh and that's the only one I assume yeah I didn't plan it that way . What I wanted to do was to uh have one bowel movement before we went to the surface so that would take care of of that period of time and uh I went around with a bag on my panty for about 12 hours hoping I could do something and never did . And at one point I even wished the heck we had a laxative aboard to uh help me do that . I'm not sure whether that's a good idea or not , but it sure seemed like it at the time and uh . I was really concerned that I need to have a bowel movement while we're on the surface and uh I got through that period figured well we got it made be good to get back in the command module and use the bag and I still couldn't and it was till the 8th day . And that was a Whopper . Did you ever get any cramps or anything with it though ? You never had any gut , gut disturbance at all . Fine . OK . I wasn't uncomfortable . I didn't even have a feeling of fullness . Oh , good . How about you ? How , what , how'd your cycle go ? Well , I had 115 bags , uh , On the 3rd day I believe it was and then another bag on about the 7th day . Sorry . And no problems . I mean they were normal consistency and sort of as far as that's really uncivilized that I agree with you . We , we got to find a better the high the total hygiene thing in this thing is so archaic it's unbelievable and we , we just . Got to do better than that if we're going to keep people in space . That's really the only time I didn't feel civilized , you know . I really felt uncivilized during that whole process , the whole mess , yeah , that's a big mess and the ability to clean up afterwards and the fact is the ability to maintain personal hygiene throughout the flight is we need better equipment . Stu , how about you ? I went to , uh , 80 hours was the first one . I remember distinctly because I said between 80 and 81 hours approaching LOI while I'm going to do it . And which pleasantly surprised me too while we're on the gory subject because pre-flight I anticipated that I might have to use the bag more than that because in my normal course of events it's very common for me to hit the head at least twice a day and so I was pleasantly surprised that I got to 80 hours and then I had one other one and it was . It was after TEI I guess the next day after TEI and I , I don't remember what time frame it was or was it ? Yeah , I guess it was . It was the day after TEI and uh OK , I don't remember the GET or anything . I , I can't even associate it with anything except these guys in their gas masks . I don't know what else was going on at that time . Yeah , these guys . OK , uh , when did you first start to use the nose drops ? How far into the , do you remember what day ? 3rd day , wasn't it ? 3 , I think . And do you feel that that was a , I , I'm a little bit confused about your , you're you're describing this fullness and still do you feel that this was a thing that was associated with the this fullness that was due to , to the weightlessness , or do you think it was an oxygen effect just due to the drying and so forth and I never felt that dry . And I at the time I thought it could have been either or both , and so I just treated it symptomatic symptomatically with a couple of with about one drop in each nostril and it was completely effective for the next 10 to 12 hours . Well , you could hear it . This is a fairly routine . You hear this in the guys' voices , and you know they're doing it , you know , you hear this full feeling that they have . Sometimes they get a little bit of hoarse , uh , sensation with it too . And it comes and goes and uh you described it I thought very well yesterday , you know , sometimes in the mornings it'd be you'd wake up it'd be better in the morning and uh you know I don't know that's this is kind of a of a subjective feeling uh I kind of felt that maybe the whole uh full head sensation was related to a readjustment of the whole cardiovascular system and therefore it is if you could relax a little bit in the evening , it ought to help it this is my theory maybe kind of . I wished it that way . I know . It's a , just a general feeling . Nothing to substantiated , uh , quantitatively . And I think as far as the nose drops are concerned , it helped , uh , with the mucus , but it didn't help the overall fullness , uh , sensation . Did they work all right ? Yeah . I know we got a special lists too here , but did they work all right ? I mean . Did the . Just like it should have . They cleared out the , made it clear , clear out the , the mucus temporarily , a few hours . Yeah . OK . And still , what about , now , Did you just give yourself too big a slug ? Is that what happened to it , or I think I probably did , Chuck . I , I'm sure that's what happened , you know , I , uh , decided , well , I hadn't used any up until then , but on entry , you know , I thought , well , I think I'll just use some of these beauties , and , uh , I think I hit , gave me too big a dose in the right nostril here , because boy , my eyes started watering and I could feel it in my sinuses and everything else . And , uh , then , but it lasted maybe an hour and by the time . I guess I probably did that a couple 3 hours prior to entry and uh an hour later , you know , I , I think most of the symptoms have gone away either that or you're getting closer to entry and you stop worrying about it but uh yeah I did . I , I think I overdid it and uh I . I , I , uh , just , you know , I hardly ever take any nose drops or anything , and maybe I just got too much in there , and it , it's probably pretty powerful stuff . It is powerful . I know if I , in one GR here , if I take more than a couple of drops of Afrin , if I use drops instead of spray , I get the same effect . Yeah . Yeah . No , that's not a . It's a burning and a real drying sensation . Yeah . And , and it wasn't a lack of breathing or not , It before flight or anything like that . I think I was just a little overzealous in the , in the application . Well , you know , 2 drops of good , give it 4 . Yeah , you know , what the hell ? Did you , did you feel that you got any , uh , did you get a tachycardia with that ? Did you get a real increase in heart rate with that ? Oh , I don't have the foggiest idea . You , you didn't , you didn't feel it anymore . Yeah . I , y'all had to , y'all had the , he pumped a little more adrenaline . He got mad at us for suggesting that we use the gun . Yeah , I was stayed off at the suggestion . Did , uh , did any of you all had some , some evidence in , in your ears on , on , uh , after on the first exam when Bill saw you of having some , some , uh , bubbles , uh , in there . And did you have any sensation during reentry that you were having trouble clearing your ears , any of you ? No sensation surprising to me . I was looking for it and surprisingly enough , I had no problem . Problems . Not a bit . I could feel the pressure change , uh , but , uh , I mean I could hear them pop , but you know I could do , I did that too on my , uh , suit integrity check . I , I could feel the pressure , you know , and you just sort of pop it . I'd like to make a comment before I forget about this voice sounding full , you know , I noticed that , that you'll do that a lot if you , I think maybe it's because the atmosphere is dry , but if you're doing a lot of talking . And then you'd come on and I would notice myself sounding , sounding full and I'd say , gee , I'm , I'm sounding like that and , and my head wasn't constantly full at all , but I could tell in my voice that I was sounding hearing it in your voice if you've been doing a lot of talking , right . Well , that's true . If you do , you know , like if you end up just talking all the time , like if you end up here like in a session yesterday where you talked a lot during the TV , you may even have had that , that kind of thing . If you just talk a lot during the day , you , you can have it . We don't have too much else to do in here , Charles . Now we're back to that . Hey , Chuck , comment on those apps . We , we're looking for somebody to cut a glove . Who is it ? When is that gonna happen ? The comment on the African bottles . They , uh , the pressure gets to them and they separate into a jillion bubbles . That emulsion is , uh , very bubbly and filled with air . As soon as you take the cap off , it comes out , starts leaking . It's a little in the bottle . Yeah . OK . And , uh , it's , it's kind of difficult to control that stuff when you use it . That was the first time you opened the bottle or after you ? Always . Always . Every time you opened it . Yeah . What , what technique did they use for applying the nose drops ? OK , Clay , what technique did you use for applying the nose drops ? How did you put them in ? Very gentle squeeze trying to get just one drop at a time out . Just put the dropper up and put it in there and hosed it . Just like we told him to . Good boy . Uh , what , what did you take those , uh , PRDs down in your , in your suits , tape them . You'll never believe it , Charles . We had zipper pockets . You're kidding . It's unbelievable . They were there . We pulled out those coveralls , and there were zippers on them . First time we'd seen zippers in the whole training cycle . I'll be , so they're not in the training suits . They're just on the flight suits that it ? OK . Well , how about that ? OK . Where we had that we had , we had requested it way , way back and forgotten about that . We'd made the official request and it was already in the mail and nobody knew about it and none of the training devices were that way . But lo and behold , out of the package that came in there was there they were . Well , that's great . It was , they were great too . So Oh , OK , uh . Well , I don't understand where that is . Well , uh , when you remove your PGAs , Al , is there a point in the checklist where we should include the removal of the PRDs back into your flight coveralls , or , or is that not there ? It already says take all the items out of here . Oh , it does . OK , if that happens to be one that's by itself , I see . And if you forget that extra pocket's there , you'll forget it . Well , now it's , it's listed in there , uh . Uh , when we take the suits off the first day , I , I guess , you know , and then when you bring the suits back over , uh , from the limb , why , you know , a pretty rushed timeline , that it wouldn't , I don't know whether it'd be any good to put that in your timeline book or not because at that time your main purpose is just to get the suits and get , get them stowed . Yeah , you said you jerked them down and got them zipped up in those bags pretty fast , right into the , right into the bag . OK , probably wouldn't hurt , I guess when we list the items to take out of the suits when we come back to the lamb , we can just add PRDs in there as another item we list sunglasses and pencils and all the rest of the things . That's what . And then I mean I sunglasses remind me , uh , when did you , when you said you use sunglasses , you're the only one who did use some sunglasses corrective lenses , is that right ? I use prescription corrective lenses . Oh , OK . When , when did you use the , the corrective lenses ? A couple of times when I had to read small print . In the pipeline in just in in the in the command module with the helmet off all the time I didn't . No , I , no , I didn't . I'd use it from time to time in the sums , particularly in the LMS . The only time when I can't adapt is in low light levels . Did you have any , did you have any feeling about that on the lunar surface , now , that , that , the low , that the light levels were , were bothersome to you because of that ? Because that is a very typical thing . That's a , that's an interesting thing . The light levels were generally higher in the , uh , in the lunar module . The thing that they don't stimulate on the LMS is the difference between day and night . On this afternoon how about out I do all the time for purposes . How about out on the surface when you were actually out on the surface and , and had your visor down ? Did , did , did those light levels bother you at all ? I mean , did you feel that , that you were having any , any difficulty seeing that . And see , the only problems I have is when reading small print at close distances when the light levels low , and I had the problem with the LMS a couple of times in the CMS and the LMS , I think , I don't know how many times I broke them up , and I don't know , perhaps . Yeah . 6 or 8 times I tried to read that card . It's , it's about the only time I've ever seen you use them . Yeah . On the surface , Chuck , it's either stark white , I mean , dazzling white or it's absolutely black . So it's black . I don't think eyesight has a great deal to do with it at that point . Yeah , that's right . I think you've covered most of that stuff about the vision on the surface and so it's pretty well in there . I think you've done that very well in the in the thing so I don't think we need to if we have something that comes back up for that , well , we'll get the word to you , but as far as I can tell from getting through all that so far , I think we've got most of that covered , you know , I might point out to you if you want to pursue the the visibility further for any sort of medical things . If you look at the photographs , in my opinion they're exactly what we saw . If you look across sun , the visibility is great . If you look up sun , everything's blared out by the sun . If you look down sun , all of the gentle , subtle rolling and the subdued craters , they just disappear on you . But cross sun visibility is great . The photographs show it the same way . You know , just real briefly on that same subject , I , it's kind of hard to tell when you're looking at just negatives of the 70 millimeters , but I was looking at some of the zero phase pictures last night and how the targets would disappear at zero phase . It does it on the , on the films also the same way as it turned out , I'll have to get , you know , see what the prints look like , but . First impression is that I didn't see much more than what the camera did at zero phase , which is going to surprise me because I would have thought different . Yeah , but that I don't take that as any sort of data until I've had a chance to really see a blown up print , you know , I'm just looking at some negatives in here , but that's my first impression . We've always said that . The eyeball can see more than the film can , but with our particular film , I think they're pretty good correspondence . Probably gonna be about the same . That's great . You still need answers . You're insinuating we have bad eyeballs . No , we just have good film . That's a preliminary opinion . Hey , on the sunglasses , I guess you got it . As far as I know , nobody even broke their sunglasses out , right ? And you didn't feel you needed them . No . Well , I think the only time we needed them was when there was sun shafting in , but in PTC , if you just wait a couple of minutes , it'll be gone . It goes away , OK . Uh , Ed , there was a time at 196 hours where we lost your , uh , your respiratory , and your CPN . Did you notice whether it was the , was the , uh , signal conditioner disconnected then , or was there a sensor ? Or anything ? Did you know ? No . There was nothing different . It just quit , apparently . It just quit , and you couldn't see anything obvious as , as to why ? No , I went down and went over the whole system . Um . We checked the sensors , checked the , uh , the belt , uh , checked the connection and , We were getting too close to entry to really do a great deal of troubleshooting , so . No , there was no , no point to do it then and , OK , fine . Well , we're going to check those things . We never had a signal conditioner as such fail , and that's one of the things that's sort of interesting if it , if it wasn't a sensor problem that we want to be sure and check those signal conditioners out . OK , uh , I think we've got most of this mobility , uh , thing done in there . I was talking about that biomed belt . Let me just say I think my urine bag problem , the UCTA problem . It's kind of related to that belt in that you know the UCTA is held by that elastic strap and I think the problem in getting that hose length correct has to do with the fact that the UCTA doesn't always end up in the same place . Uh , you try to get it below the belt so that it doesn't get on top of it and increase the dimension and whether you've already done . And I think in doing that I probably wore it a little more , you know , wore the gun down the hip more maybe , uh , in retrospect , if there's some way that that thing could be fixed just like it was fixed , then it wouldn't move up and down and therefore you can adjust the hose length , uh , a little better . It's , I , I wore mine differently . I wore mine over the bile belt . That may be the difference . Well , I think it's a question of . Fixing the , uh , the vertical height of that thing so you can get the right length of the hose because mine was up and down . I think when you reached in you probably found it was sagging down as a result of being full of fluid in one hand , but also because I used to wear it below the belt on the other . Yeah . But it , his hose had a definite kink in it . It came out of the fitting and just made a sharp kink and it was bent just like you , it's kinked just like you see a little . Yeah . Hm . Very good . Did you have , did you feel any , uh , real dryness of , of skin as such or dryness of your lips or or your nose at all ? Did you ever have any sensation that way during ? Not exceptionally for me . I didn't have any obvious sensation of dryness . I know , I don't know whether the stew did . I noticed his lips were cracking about the 4th or 5th day after we got back from TEI , but I don't know if you got it or not . No , I , I didn't feel , uh , dry . In fact , I noticed , uh , a cracking in here too . Uh , but , uh , no , uh , I didn't , I didn't feel any dryness , particularly at all . OK . I think we got these all covered . Uh , did they talk to you about the Phil Chapman , uh , wanted to , to tack on the light flash thing on , on the end of this thing here . So , uh , why don't you tell them to come on in and , and , uh , let them get that out of the way then . Hey , Chuck , just real fast , um , I know , uh , you , you've got to take the data and , and you're looking ahead to the longer flights and . Uh , I'm not trying to downplay it , but this weight loss , you know , I think in my case , uh , I don't want to be misconstrued , you know , I was just sitting here thinking , you know , I weighed less after our field trip to uh , to Iceland than , than I did after this flight too , you know , a weight loss of me of , uh , of 5 pounds is , is no , just , you know , comes and goes , uh , with no problem at all . Well , that's why the body water things are going to be pretty important . Yeah . You know , to know , is that really , You know , is it , is it really a total body water loss kind of thing that'll , that'll be a real important plug to hang on there . That's why we'll go over that with you so that it is , it is clear . We won't have total body water or self or exercise your food space until after quarantine . That will be done in beta . Those are , uh , those are beta meters . We're just doing the gamma counting here . Why can't we get it out ? I'll argue that with you . We're just not , we're just not , uh , equipped . Let's get it out . I'll talk with you later . There's a scientist . Let's go . Yeah , there he is . Phil , go out . Hey y'all want coffee . I got a big pot right here . Yeah , I'm coming over to get some now . Oh , suggested that , that , uh , we should tack on a few questions about light flashes at the end of this briefing . That's what we're about to do . What we'd , uh , like to do is to clarify some of the subjective impressions that you've got . Of what you saw in the way of light light flashes and also to um to clarify the the conditions under which you saw them excuse me , could you stand back from the mic just a little bit that's a boom you sit right here it'll pick it up blast . Let's go . You need to get close . You should be right . Is there a way that the room could be that the room could be dark . In a while , a while , OK , the first question we got is , um , the streaks that you saw , were they very sharp phenomenon or were they rather diffuse like fuzzy ? The ones I saw were very sharp . There was no mistaking what it was . It was a streak so long instantaneously disappeared . Yeah , I think that's correct . Uh , both , uh , the single streak and the double shot , uh , appeared to be very clear to me . They were quite clear and I think I made the comment over the loop that most of my streaks appeared to be on the periphery . And for the first several days , I got the impression that this direction was predominant . Later on , it appeared that I don't think I could get that good a pattern , but that was my first impression for the first couple of days . The next question is , uh , was there any apparent direction of propagation and could you tell it was coming from one side to the other , or was it just a , a flash ? Several times you did say from the left to the right or something like that . Tried to correlate it , but uh in my case I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it . Yeah , I would think that the time period in which we tried to uh report them streak by streak , flash by flash was representative . And uh it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period and uh . Therefore , generally random throughout the time that we were noticing them . No , I meant , uh , could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other in general . It was , it was moving in a specific , a specific , a specific flash . Yes , yes , but you could see it as it traveled from one side to the other . You really think we tried to report it that way , didn't we ? Yes , you did report that's the way puzzling because it happens . It has to be very fast , you know . Isn't that question kind of redundant then I believe you . Was there some character to these flashes that had some , some aspect of direction ? I mean , were they all the same rod shaped or were they , did they have a tail on them ? Well , what I saw , what I reported as a streak was simply that , uh , now maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail , but I don't , I can't say that for sure . All I reported was a streak and I had the impression . Of it moving from one direction to the other and I reported that direction and I , I can't clarify it much more than that . Did you want while you're asking a question , we just douse the lights . I think they can see this in the dark room , but just try it . The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it . I think you need the light out . Well , can you see anything ? Yeah , except that's what it looked like , except it was traveling . In other words , uh , it started out and it definitely progressed across the field of view . Direction of motion per individual was it that bright , yeah , except you're not traveling . It was traveling .